Sam Kim
Gosh. Well, you know, isn’t it overwhelming? It’s pretty overwhelming, right? What a giant ass kind of topic.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah. Well, I think it’s…what’s part of what’s a lot about it is just how to navigate the public-facing part of it too. You know, because there’s like, I feel like, when it comes to aspects of identity and community, there’s, like, a lot of stuff that gets talked about that you and I might talk about behind closed doors and some that you might say in public. And I think that it is often the question, like, how much of this needs to be public? How much of it needs to be behind closed doors? And who is this for, you know, like to be making aspects of it public. So it’s, yeah, an ongoing question.
Sam Kim
Like, what to reveal and what not to.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah.
Sam Kim
And when you’re talking about, like, the intention behind things too, like, I think the biggest thing is just really healing. That’s probably the biggest thing for me. It’s just that––and now I’m really harking back to that really great New York Times interview with Steven Yeun I don’t know when, I don’t know what was coming out. I don’t think it was Minari. I think it was like some other movie he was in. Or maybe it was, but, you know, they had assigned like a Korean American interviewer to him. And like, so much of that conversation was like a preamble to like, you know, the politics of like, oh, do the Times assign you because you’re Korean American, and I’m Korean American, and hence, there’s going to be some like, amazing, you know, insight and, you know, instant camaraderie. So whatever, there’s just like a lot of weirdness of just, like, the racialization of the conversation and how much time they’re just going to like devote to that versus like, Oh, hey, Steven Yeun, you’re amazing. Your career’s, like on fire, and, you know, let’s talk about the work. Yeah, I don’t know, that article is kind of a standout article for me.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah. I mean, that’s something I think about too. If I can speak for myself, that I feel like, like, at least coming from like an immigrant family that there is a sense of the work needing to speak for itself. But then and I think in the way that a lot of, like, AAPI politics have played out, there can be a kind of invisibilizing of the struggles and the work and the healing that is happening. Partly, alongside this, like, value of––which I’m not sure I buy into––but like letting the work speak for itself. You know, I have like double, I have multiple feelings about it at the same time.
Sam Kim
Of course. Yeah. I guess maybe one of the counter-sort of things that––I totally know the kind of pressure that you’re speaking to––and this is actually one of your questions to me. And I think it’s this kind of a weird undue pressure and I don’t know, like, what produces it––if it’s cultural anxiety, if it’s curatorial anxiety, if it’s human anxiety. This is like a whole lot of anxiety but, like, why does that have to be present in the work, you know? It’s like, here you are, you’re a whole human being. Okay, so you’re a practitioner, you make dances, you’re a choreographer. That doesn’t––like, because your work doesn’t overtly or flagrantly address identity issues or what have you––doesn’t mean that you’re apathetic, you know? Like, why is there that assumption? It’s like, you could be a fucking like, you know, political activist crusader in your spare time.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I feel like it’s complicated, because I simultaneously hear that, and, I think, for myself, you know, I feel like I acknowledge the kind of privilege of like, being able to separate like, “Okay, this is about the work for myself”, or something. And then I also have felt the kind of pressure to, I mean, from mentors and other people in, like, institutional contexts where they’re, you know, like, the notes on the work have to do with, “Why not kind of tie this in to some colonial aspects, you know, like, or, why not talk about…” You know, I’ve had that experience where, you’re really directly being told, not for the sake of getting any awards or grants or anything like that, but even just for like, is this like, almost like fishing for what the kind of politic or the agenda might be? And I think somehow, at least for myself, I’m curious about that space between a lot of, between a lot of those things, and I think there’s pressure I have felt to like, have it be about a kind of thing.
Sam Kim
Yeah. So wait a second, I have a clarifying question for you. You have––wait, who are? See, this is actually very eye-opening for me. Okay, so these are comments from other practitioners? These are comments from curators, these are…
Justin Cabrillos
It was, it was more in an educational context. Like, yeah, being kind of, like, guided in a particular direction to, from someone who was not Filipino. It was a white person, you know, kind of gently, yeah, nudging me in, in that realm. And I think so for me, specifically, I think, part of my mixed feelings about, like, how to or not to address politics, or kind of social aspects in the work is also kind of some suspicion around who is this serving? Or who is it for?
Sam Kim
Of course, and what is the genuine intention behind that, right? Yeah. Because this, this is your, this is your question that you sent me, which was worded very well and articulately: “I’m curious about the pressure to make a certain kind of work that we both may or may not experience or might experience to different degrees.” So I would say: I hear you, and I don’t think––and I really have to really think back over decades––whether or not anybody has explicitly tried to guide me in that way. And I am coming up empty. So that’s not to say though, that I don’t feel that kind of particular pressure because obviously look, like, look at the work that is just being made, you know, whether or not they, like, succumb to certain pressures, curatorial pressures or cultural pressures or, you know, whatever. But I will say looking at over two decades of practice like––and you know this very clearly too––sort of what kind of support or not support has happened for me that I look to as a clear indicator of like, for whatever reason, like, the work that I made, I don’t know, it’s just not been supported, you know, in terms of like, certain milestones. And at this time, I’m going to explicitly name the Foundation for Contemporary Arts, because the statistics are out there, if you go to their website, and you look at the recipients in dance… When I really looked at it in maybe 2022, there are only three out of 79 recipients of the individual artists to award who are Asian American. So that to me is just like and I personally haven’t received the award and I can also name some other you know, Nami Yamamoto, I don’t think has gotten the award, and, you know, then we hark back to Donna Uchizono, it’s like, why isn’t her name on the list and Crystal Jo Wang, and you know, I can, yeah, they’re just, like, real serious, egregious omissions. So I’m gonna name it because again, you can just go to the website and you can look and like, it’s all on there. And it’s just, I’m just connecting the dots. So, like, that to me is a clear indicator of the way that system is set up, you know, it’s artists nominating other artists. And that’s like, a lovely sort of, like, chummy thought of like, hey, you know, we’re all in this together. But that doesn’t work when people are racist. It just doesn’t. Why are artists, like why wouldn’t artists be racist? We’re in this culture, you know, we’re here, we’re alive. We’re part of this whole system. We all traffic in these systems, and we’re all acculturated to these things. So you know, that’s certainly alive and well. So when I looked at that, I certainly have not. And I don’t mean this in, like a pissy, kind of like, woe is me kind of way. But it’s just a fact. Yeah, there’s milestone markers, where you look at somebody like me, who makes the kind of work that I make, which is experimental. And, you know, you don’t sort of reach certain milestones. It’s, it’s just a fact. So, yeah, I definitely point to that and say, for sure, you know, I’m doing, I can connect the dots on that. And, you know, for sure, you know, people may just not like my work, too. Of course, that’s and that’s how it is. That’s the deal that you make when you make work and you put it into this world, of course, you’re not going to please everybody. Yeah. For me, that’s certainly a strong, undeniable evidence.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah. I’m curious, like, because of that evidence to you, does that––whether you respond to or however you feel through the pressure––do you, does it kind of exert pressure on you to make a certain kind of work?
Sam Kim
No. I know who I am and I just don’t care. I just don’t care anymore. You know what, it’s a peculiar place. And it’s all an outgrowth of a pandemic. And like, I lost my dad, you know, a little over a year and a half ago, and you know this. And, you know, like, I really took that, like, forced contemplation to heart, of course, what are we doing? What are we doing in this forum? Like, how are these systems holding up? Why are we trafficking them? Why do we prop them up? Like, if we don’t do a serious reevaluation of them, I just like, what was the, there was no silver lining then of all pandemics. Yeah, so I’ve come out, seem to have come out the other side. And, no, I seem to be kind of, I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, I do it. I do it because I have my own particular curiosities and inquiries and interests. And if I don’t protect the freedom and the “why” of what I do, then I don’t know why I’m doing it. And so I just let my natural interests lead the way. And, you know, also, speaking from the perspective of somebody who has been making work for so long to it’s just like, you see, you see, like, you know, fashion is definitely at play, you know, fashion is in dance, of course, just like everything else there are, there’s stuff that’s gonna be fashionable and then it’s not fashionable and other things are gonna be fashionable and, you know, like…
Justin Cabrillos
I guess one thing I’m curious about too is like, do you then, because you said like, naturally, you’re not necessarily, explicitly, like highlighting these politics or something like that, but does it make you feel, like, the pressure to exclude it? Do you know what I mean? Like, I guess I’m curious, like, how do, like, these things you and I have talked about around all the kind of institutional racism and these things, like, I don’t know, I’m really curious, like, how does that sit for you in relation to where your work stands, in relation to your practice?
Sam Kim
I think I generally just don’t pick up that stick. I just don’t pick it up. Because I think at this point, it’s so highly personal, like, I just feel like I have to protect what energy and motivation I do have, and not extend it in ways where… I think it’s just like a “no” thing. It’s like a “no” position. It’s a no, like, not one way or the other. Like, I think I want to have a really enjoyable experience. If I’m going to be interfacing with like, curators and programmers and institutions and gatekeepers or whatever the fuck the language is now, like, I want to know that they’re on my side for the right reasons. And if the energy doesn’t feel good, like, I’m just, I’m just out.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah, I love that.
Sam Kim
You got to go where the love is. Yeah, just go where the love is. And that’s beyond any kind of polarized, kind of, like, the polarization right now is just making me so sick. It’s just so fraught, that I, I just don’t, in order to, again, protect my own practice and my well being like, those boundaries are very clear.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s, it’s tricky now, because I think, you know, there are more than a few institutions and artists and groups of artists examining care, and I feel like as an aesthetic, it’s, you know, when it, when it’s brought into this kind of aesthetic, or this, this kind of creative landscape, it’s, I don’t know, there’s so many layers to it, because then I’m like, what, what’s your real intention?
Sam Kim
Yeah, the aestheticization of care. Yeah, yeah. Or the performance? The performativity of care. Yeah, yeah, I don’t know how much I can speak to that because, you know, at the risk of sounding incredibly, sort of cynical about it, although I think there’s certainly a grain of truth in it, I you know, yeah, that could also be considered fashionable. Which means again, it will come and it will go.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah. But I would love for the care to remain, for the real care to remain. It becomes harder. Because, yeah, well, it becomes harder, I think, to like, to differentiate when it’s there. For me, I’m just like, because this, is this really care or is this, yeah, like you said, the performance of it?
Sam Kim
Yeah, yeah. And also, I think, at this time, I want to inject into the conversation that you know, we actually started talking about all this stuff like years ago. We were, you know, we went to the Vietnamese place and had banh mi is what I remember. Yum. And I don’t know what year that was, if it was pre-Atlanta shootings or after, which changed everything.
Justin Cabrillos
I think it was after?
Sam Kim
Yeah, that makes sense to me. I think it was so.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah.
Sam Kim
Um, so, and I remember we were remarking too because that was a very private conversation between the two of us, but just even being like, you know, both of us expressing a lot of ambivalence and a lot of trepidation about, kind of, speaking in a more public kind of platform about these really incredible, profound issues specific to AAPI and in our dance community. Now that, you know, I’m like an elder…
Justin Cabrillos
I remember it also being in the context of just being scared on the subway and yeah, you know, and kind of just, yeah, like looking over my shoulder as I’m, as I’m going in the subway to just be double checking.
Sam Kim
Mm hm. And who was even, like, really cognizant of that, other than other AAPI? Because I think when all that was happening there, all those assaults on AAPI, I think I learned something about the way other people saw me who weren’t AAPI, who would be sort of perhaps astonished that I had some trepidation or was conscious, like very, like, vigilant of where I was going out in the city like, yeah, sort of like, “Oh, you didn’t realize I was––you thought I was white.”
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah.
Sam Kim
Which actually, I love that as a point of entry. Something I would speak to in my trajectory and working in this community in this form. I think that’s been the flip side of, like, again, it’s just a feeling. Well, there’s all these, like, little granular things, right. And it’s not like one particular thing that gives you this sort of feeling of being other but it’s the accumulation of all these things. Yeah? Like weird comment that that curator made or that weird comment that that teacher made or that weird comment that your fellow practitioner, you know, whatever. But I, in a sort of broader sense, I think what you pointed to very clearly was, you know, there’s this perhaps like an expectation of, “Could you make work that is more overtly about identity politics, particularly your identity? Could you please racialize your work? More?”
Justin Cabrillos
Could you please share your trauma?
Sam Kim
And then I think the flip has been that perhaps in my case, my work is not so visible, because it’s like what the fuck are we going to do with her because it’s like she makes this white work because she’s making you know, experimental stuff which is coded as white so then it’s like well, then I guess we’re just gonna treat her like another white woman applicant, you know? Yeah, I think that has also definitely, like, no she’s not put her into the she makes like very traditional Butoh. You know what, and there’s nothing wrong; I like Butoh. You know, like something that is steeped in heritage and cultural legacy and you know, then we can be like, oh, yeah, you know, we know what to do with that, that’s like there it still has the flavor of being exotic. Okay, so Sam Kim doesn’t do that. So I guess she’s like another white girl that’s no fun.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah, it’s not a fun erasure.
Sam Kim
No, I was gonna say that’s no fun for a curator. You know that like what, what’s saleable about that, you know, like, yeah, I don’t know. It’s a conjecture, what can I say? But those are some feelings. Those are some hypotheses. You know, in my mind.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah. One thing I’ve been, like, thinking about too, I mean, is whether I’m maybe, because of, at least in my experience with kind of other languages, and so, you know, hearing my dad or my mom’s experience, I think that they weren’t necessarily always explicitly talking about the politics of, or the explicit racism they experienced that, I think there was often a desire to maybe focus more on the, like, triumphs over those kinds of things. And I think it, I don’t know, I’ve just been lately thinking about other ways of healing or being together that aren’t always like languaging because somehow I feel like, at least in my relationship with my parents, I can maybe feel without us having to say it out loud, kind of aspects of their own healing or just, I don’t know. It’s something I’m just curious about, there’s like other ways of feeling that aren’t always languaging that I can’t really, I don’t really have the words for but I feel like I witness it happening. You know? I know what a great way to be having an interview through words when I don’t have the words for any of these things. But I don’t know, it’s something that I make light of, but it’s also, it’s something I feel for myself is mysterious to me, but also, there’s something, like, palpable and potent about it because I find that, like, talking to my parents or other… I don’t know what I’m saying. It’s just, I feel like there’s a kind of healing that maybe I’ve been witnessing as like being in the room together that isn’t always accompanied by words.
Sam Kim
Are you, are you talking about this with respect to like work being made, or just a different sphere of …?
Justin Cabrillos
I think maybe all of the above. I don’t, I don’t––I think healing can happen with like, explicitly coming into the room with an agenda and, like, with a discourse and with a desire, and I feel the kind of pressure we were talking about earlier. I, I somehow feel like, a lot of what’s been, what, at least what I’ve been witnessing with, like, artists’ statements and the kind of pressure to professionalize in a particular way, that there’s this way of, like, language as a particular kind of currency. And I feel like work can somehow gain more traction if the language is, kind of, accompanying it in a particular way. But I guess what I’m saying is that I think I kind of wonder about the space where art or dance or whatever can operate in ways that don’t always have to always put the value on, like, how much the artist knows about what they’re doing, if that makes sense, or what they can say about what they’re doing.
Sam Kim
Yeah. No, totally. No, I love. That’s, that’s my favorite.
Justin Cabrillos
Not to say, I feel like, not to discount any work that is, like, where the person is a wonderful advocate for their own work. I guess I just think, like––
Sam Kim
I don’t think it’s an “either or” kind of situation.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah, I don’t think it’s an “either or,” I just think like, yeah, in the kind of way in which gatekeeping has kind of evolved that, like, especially with dance, I feel like there––if, you know, there’s so much, I feel like there’s so much currency in like, what and how someone speaks about the work.
Sam Kim
Yeah, yeah, things being articulated in a very particular way. Yeah, I don’t know. Like, again, it’s––I think it just goes back to intention. And, I mean, I think it’s a really huge question of like, what are the means to heal? And I know I said that’s what I really want. And, you know, if it’s not really coming through the channels of, like, what dance is right now, or what performance is right now, like, that’s okay. So, for me, you just start looking for other channels.
Justin Cabrillos
Can you say more about that? I’m curious.
Sam Kim
Oh, things that just aren’t dance. Other practices.
Justin Cabrillos
Oh, yeah. You’re saying that the healing can come from, like, other practices or art forms?
Sam Kim
Yeah, you know, I think even the way that this conversation came down, I think it’s really good to point out that Londs and I were in a space together, and I don’t know how it came up, I think we were just getting to know each other. And somehow race came up. And before I knew it, I was telling Londs that I had a very bizarre and very long phone conversation with Donna Uchizono who, after the Atlanta shooting, was on her own trajectory with, sort of, reckoning with her own position in the dance world and her own experience. And she’s the only choreographer of a certain stripe of Japanese descent, who, you know, was born in the states. Complicated notions of, like, what generation she is, and I don’t really know how to talk about generations myself. Anywho, we had that conversation and we had not known each other really at all. And we, it was so long, that conversation was so long, we had so much to, like “insert projectile vomiting gesture” in this conversation. And that was really, that was like, very telling; that was incredible. Like, you know, she had been isolated in her own way to make me realize that I was the only American, kind of, choreographer working in this niche of the dance world. As a Korean American, like nobody was really behind me that I knew of, and like weird things, too––and I don’t say this in a self-aggrandizing way––but like, I noticed at some point, like Dance Magazine, somebody, an AAPI, young writer had written something for Dance Magazine, and had cited me as, like, they were talking about AAPI choreographers, the avant garde, and you know, it’s like Eiko & Koma, Sam Kim, and I was like, “Oh God, how can my name be mentioned in the same breath as Eiko & Koma?” I feel weird. Like, I just feel weird about it. Like, wow, I’m terribly, terribly flattered. Like, wow, I don’t do anything to promote myself, like ever. I’m on zero social media. So how do they even find me? Oh, yeah, that, you know, it was such a small, terrifyingly small group, and it also lit a fire under my ass of like, “Holy shit, I better, like, I better be more present in a certain way to help out the others that are coming up behind me.” Somehow all that, like, crystallized that for me and I’d never––because again, you know, like, I think we’re all so freakin’ tired with just having to, you know, make the work, having to book the space, having to, you know, chase down dancers and make schedules and write some grants––all the, all the stuff to just make the thing. And you’re doing all that, to the extent that, like, you don’t see certain things like, you know, like the Atlanta shootings, like, God, like really I have so many wildly ambivalent feelings about just, like, “Oh my god, like, the wake up call even on the level of just, like, hey, I hadn’t even been thinking very, very consciously about race: me who I am as a Korean American making work in this particular form, and like what does that even like… I was just trying to get by doing all the things. So, and I mean, I’m not gonna speak for Donna here, but again, the fact that she has reached a certain level of visibility and being the only one to do that, I think also just speaks to, like, a certain wild expenditure of, like, energy to just … which actually leads me to your other––
Justin Cabrillos
I was just gonna ask.
Sam Kim
I’ll just maybe read it: Did you feel a sense of competitiveness with other AAPI choreographers (from others or from within) or was there a sense of solidarity? No, no either way. I think because there are so few of us, particularly my generation and I think Mina Nishimura is very much my generation, although I think she’s actually a little, no, she’s a little younger in years and also, I think, in choreographic practice. She makes very different work, she makes, you know, like her and Kota, I don’t think, they would not say that they make Butoh, but it’s still highly Butoh-inflected. So, to me, that was just such a, a different stripe of work that I just never felt any, kind of like, I’m just like, oh, it’s apples and oranges. And then I just adore Mina as a person. So there wasn’t a sense of, like, me racializing like, say our relationship, just as an example. So, but again, I think I was just so like this, just trying to get the work done and doing all the like, secondary, tertiary, whatever things to get the work made, that I wasn’t even really thinking.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah.
Sam Kim
Hence, like, not necessarily the solidarity, either of like, hey, like, if it doesn’t suck, like, we’re really fucking like, alone and isolated, like, you know, like, ouch. Like, that didn’t even you know, really enter my consciousness. Makes me cringe to say it but you know. So there you have it, to be totally honest. And then I’m very curious. And again, I can’t put words into anybody else’s mouth, but just knowing like, just how racism is like back in the 90s, when I was definitely young, and, like, very young, and just starting. And I can sort of think of, like, other AAPI choreographers who were sort of, like, hitting their stride and in their heyday, I definitely think it really was problematic in terms of like, “Oh, if we’re gonna do this program, I think we can only have one of you”, you know, tokenization of like––you know, tokenization was going on like, fully in its heyday, of like––so you know, of course that sets up this like, really ugly dynamic of like, “Oh my god, this is going to be one of us.” Oh, God. I mean, tokenization is still going on strongly. But it’s a nicer one, it’s a nicer stripe of racism.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah.
Sam Kim
Yes, and you, because I want to hear from your perspective. I want to hear this.
Justin Cabrillos
I think it’s, I think maybe it’s, it’s maybe not from, as much from within, like, I don’t feel like I’m, like, I don’t feel competitive personally, it’s more, like, kind of what you were saying earlier about how different institutions maybe haven’t curated so many AAPI’s. So then it’s like, I’ll just, you know, there’s like, in this program, or in this selection process maybe there’s like, one or two, or zero, you know what I mean? And so I feel like, there would be kind of like––I don’t know what to call that kind of awareness of that being a thing––you know what I mean? So in some ways, I think that’s related to the previous, the earlier question about the pressure to make certain kinds of work. Because I feel like for me, there would be, there would be sometimes, like, an awareness that if––and the question is like, if, if I were to make certain kinds of work, what would that do? I mean, it wouldn’t make me necessarily do the other kinds of work, but it’s just kind of in my psyche. And so then it, it’s just a presence that’s there, which is gonna be there. And so I would say, like, I’ve experienced at maybe both ends: the solidarity and the the competitiveness. I remember, when I first moved to New York, there was someone who was AAPI, I was kind of just trying to be friendly with in a dance class. And it just, I just got this like, really competitive vibe. And I couldn’t tell if it was, like, partly general competitiveness or just like racialized. Like there can only be one. I don’t know. I’m like, like, I don’t care. I’m just like, we can both be here. And so, I––
Sam Kim
Wow. It’s painful, right? It is painful. That’s just these two larger dysfunctional, highly dysfunctional dynamics. And, you know, like, that’s just a cultural legacy thing and dance. I mean come on, like, auditioning culture and cut throat, you know, who’s gonna get that job? I think that’s yeah, who knows how to unpack that. But, yeah, or even, you know, how about the fact that that question even crops up in your mind of, like, what stripe of competitiveness is this? Is this racialized or is it just oh, run-of-the-mill dance culture?
Justin Cabrillos
Or both? I mean, I think they, like, they overlap just because the awareness of like, what, yeah, kind of tokenization that you’re talking about, too. But I have, I mean, on the other end, too, I have more recently been feeling the sense of solidarity, but that’s, like, way more recently.
Sam Kim
That’s fabulous.
Justin Cabrillos
That has been nice.
Sam Kim
Yeah, for sure. That’s, that’s, that’s so good. I guess I’m thinking, I’m mulling over ah, like, I think one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you––well, number one, we just have our own natural affinity, which is lovely. We like each other, which is lovely. Okay, and um, but I think I’ve said this in a number of different ways. I don’t know in different contexts. I’m just like, I have been waiting. I have been waiting for somebody like you. Yeah, so we can even have this level of conversation because I would say, you know, within very recent memory, it wasn’t even somehow, the stakes weren’t even there. You know, like it wasn’t even––the space, the imagining that we could have this conversation––that wasn’t even there, the awareness of the potential for it. Like, would there be a day when there’ll be, like, these younger cooler choreographers who come along, who have the capacity to hold all of this nuance, and articulate these weird things of like, “Oh, like, what stripe of competitiveness is this?” Like, it’s such a huge fucking relief to me that this day has finally arrived, because––and I think that points to this sense of isolation, like the profound sense of isolation and loneliness, when you don’t even have the language. Like, you don’t know how to name it, because you think nobody else has experienced it because you’re the only one. Like, that’s very, very, very deep. Yeah, so, so deep. And, you know, there have been other younger makers and thinkers and people and other players in our community who also have this expanded kind of awareness and can have this conversation coming from a place of like genuine care, and not the performativity of care. So that’s been, that has kept me that has kept me in the field that’s given me, like, a lot of hope and a lot of courage. And I think it’s just, like, the shocking awareness that I didn’t realize I was even going, like, I don’t know what I was running on, like fumes or something like, like, bereft of that kind of, like, hope and courage that things would actually progress in a really good way, like, one of these days. So it feels like there’s some kind of critical mass that’s been reached. But I didn’t, I didn’t know that, I had no idea because I didn’t even know. I was alone. And so I’m really glad that Donna Uchizono was like, “Wow, I’m alone!” Because it made me realize that I was alone. So yeah, I do. And so I do, I definitely do in my own not salient ways at all, but through my own, I guess, very personal channels, you bet I have been having very bizarre, honest conversations that try to effect some change, to bring some awareness to the lack of representation of AAPI in our, in our field. And also, I just want to say too, like, Cathy Park Hong has been very huge for me with her book Minor Feelings, that really––because she’s a contemporary of mine. And it’s been just really interesting to hear somebody who’s working in some other completely different discipline. And then I’ve become buddies with other AAPI artists working in other disciplines. And you know, somebody, some, like younger, like, say, Korean American writer will be like, “Oh, yeah, you know, like this Korean American writer that Korean…” I’m like, “You have a cohort! That’s amazing! That’s amazing. I am wildly jealous of you. But in the best way. I’m so that you’re not alone. And I’m so glad that you have support and I’m so glad you have models.” So yeah, I mean, I do it, I do it. I don’t put it into my work. But you know, why do I have to? It doesn’t mean I’m apathetic at all. I do other things.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah, no, I mean, I guess that’s what I was asking earlier is just like, how? Because it sounds like obviously you care. And I guess it’s like, there’s, like, these parallel and spacious places of the care and I guess I’m, I am curious about like, are they… You know, there’s this channel that you’re talking about with, like, supporting future generations of AAPI choreographers and artists and, like yeah, I guess I’m curious, like, what does the support look like for you, or what do you needs to change? I mean, of course, this question of representation––I’m curious, like, what you think in terms of the nuances of what your experiences of isolation and, like, how other experiences you’ve had maybe, like, future generations can heal from these past isolationist isolationisms. Do you know what I mean?
Sam Kim
Wait, there’s too many things in there. Let’s tease some of these things.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah, I guess I’m just curious, like, because you’re speaking to this particular kind of isolation that you felt and, and we talked about, like increasing representation. I guess I’m curious about what else you think would, kind of like, amplify? What needs to happen? How to move forward?
Sam Kim
Yeah. No, not easy. Woof.
Justin Cabrillos
I know it’s not an easy question. I’m just curious.
Sam Kim
Yeah. I don’t know. Okay, so I––fantastic though, because I’m literally thinking about like, what, what do I, what is sort of the sequence of like decision making? And, you know, for instance, this conversation came about because Londs had some natural curiosity about what I would say. And I remember saying to Londs, like that phone call with Donna actually felt really historic, like, I knew it. I knew it because Donna was the only fucking, like, you know, AAPI choreographer of a certain generation, and she was coming to that reckoning and awareness herself. And then I was like, “Oh, my God, I don’t know, I’m the only one and Korean American…” And, and, you know, Londs caught it, like, really clocked it, and you know, and then the word allyship, like real allyship, came into my mind, like there it is. There it is. Londs, love you.
Justin Cabrillos
Love you, Londs. Put that in the interview too that we love you.
Sam Kim
Shoutout to Londs right now. Love you so much. I mean, that’s just, that’s the evidence of the real care. And then, you know, it was like, oh, my God, like, hearing the, the import of that. And Londs clocking that and then creating this space. So I think that if I’m forcing certain channels or something like that’s not… It’s just a feeling thing, you know, then it feels like perhaps that’s not the right space or portal or platform or whatever. But when somebody comes like that, to me, and, like, really––it just felt organic and right and came, I think, came from the right place. So I think that’s what I look for first, it’s like, again, it’s a real great question of intention. Like, is there real allyship? Is there real understanding? If there isn’t understanding, is there a real gesture to try to understand––a willingness? And you can feel it, you can feel it if the intentions are genuine and honest, versus some kind of perhaps, some kind of calculated agenda.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah.
Sam Kim
So yeah, I don’t know. They spring up in their own mysterious ways. And it’s just a sort of a feeling I have, you know, it’s––we talk about institutions and stuff, but they’re all just people. We’re just talking about people. That’s just, you know, sussing out what feels, what feels right. What feels honest. Yeah, and I think that, like, there are various channels where I’m trying to effect some kind of conversation or some sort of awareness, like, it does boil down to some kind of individual who seems to be listening well and recognizing the need and is being generous and some, like, again, like a true generosity. So I just start with people and if the feeling is right, then it’s right.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah.
Sam Kim
And then I think concurrent to that is also really taking care of myself. You know, it’s been a hard-earned kind of thing, decades, again, of sort of this particular slog in this field of, like, yeah, if I’m to continue doing this, I have to take, I have to take care of myself, you know, now there’s certain non-negotiables. And things are changing, and things are changing, like, the fact that you––and this is now a really good time to bring up how because I think, again, it’s just a sort of a weird reflection on the larger culture and a way to track progress and change––you and I were recently the only two delegates (I know that you like that word!) New York City delegates to go to that cultural GPS exchange through Movement Research to Belgrade. The invite came out of the blue for me, but you had been slated to do this for a while. And through pretty much a former iteration of the same program, which was run through DTW like 1000 years ago, in 2005, I had gone to Scopia, Macedonia for the Balkan Dance Platform. And, you know, when I found out it was going to be you and me this time, you know, one of my first thoughts was like, oh, em, gee, wow, we’re both AAPI. Nobody seems to be, number one, like, “Wow, yay us for sending two AAPI!” Nobody was doing that, Movement Research wasn’t doing that.
Justin Cabrillos
We were doing that.
Sam Kim
We were doing that! Toasting ourselves in Belgrade! But then, you know, on the other hand, nor was there you know, the anxiety of like, “Oh, my God, you know, we’re only sending two and oh, shit, you know, we fucked up. They’re both AAPI. We can’t have, like, more than one.” That wasn’t happening. Um, because for better or worse, it’s like, nobody was paying attention. And it’s like, oh, my god, that was like, victory. That was like a weird-ass victory of like, like, doesn’t, you know, we’re just, we’re just sending a Sam, we’re just sending a Justin. Right? Just because. They see. Maybe not, I don’t want to speak for you, Movement Research.
Justin Cabrillos
I mean, yeah. It’s like, yeah, it’s, and I think it’s great that it was two AAPI, you know, that it was, they were sending two people and it happened to be two AAPI because the conversations we had, I don’t know, they felt like they could happen more so outside of New York or the US. Because we were in a situation where––for so many reasons––where we were both kind of trying to explain our struggles back in New York and in the US. And I think that was, I don’t know, it seemed like, almost like things came together in the right way for that to happen.
Sam Kim
I agree. I think it was total magic. I think it was like, amazing kismet that, yeah. Yeah, just like so not contrived. Right. And it was just such a special group and such a special space. And, and they heard us you know, I don’t know about you, but I felt very heard––
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah, definitely.
Sam Kim
––with those really groovy folks, so I’m so grateful for that. Yeah. But that’s, I’m not sure that I even wrap my mind around that so clearly, like, how, just because we were so out of our cultural everything, like, not just even like, you know, certainly AAPI and then New York, right? Like even the, like, the particular cultural-ness of New York and being dancers and being able to see that, you know, perhaps with more objectivity because we were not in it.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah. Definitely.
Sam Kim
What do you think? Do you think we did it? Did we solve everything?
Justin Cabrillos
No, I don’t think we solved anything. I’m just kidding. I don’t mean we haven’t solved anything, I just mean, I just mean it’s such a, it’s such a complex question because I, I think, I don’t know my, my sense of how to even talk about what has happened with AAPI within, like, a dance context or even in the US, I think it’s so layered and it’s so different depending on which group we’re talking about within that, and I think, the signal is that and yeah, I think I think there’s just something also too that I keep thinking about how I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know how, I don’t always know the healing happens, I feel like like talking about it is one way, and being together and I feel like there’s just so many––I feel like even the act of healing feels so specific in different different communities within AAPI. And so, so I think sometimes I’m always just curious about all these multiple channels for healing that can and do involve, like, voicing struggle and then I feel like there’s so many multiple channels that don’t have the words and, and that’s okay, and I feel like there’s a part of me that that loves that part of it, the healing too that… I think that’s why I feel like I have so much trouble in this conversation naming or, like, languaging the healing because I also am curious about modes of healing that come from, might come from within AAPI communities or histories that––I don’t know, and I can’t even necessarily name them right now but I just, I just know for myself just lately I think, for example, like when I think about healing I’ve done with my family or my parents and things like that, it hasn’t always been like a matter of saying out loud, “This is the thing we’re struggling with and let’s do this.” And you know, and I think, I don’t know there’s these ways of healing that I am curious about but I can’t name, and I guess I just would love to see more of them manifest. But I think it is important to be, like, having this conversation and talking about it. And yeah.
Sam Kim
Yeah, I think really what comes up for me is sort of, the just all the different sort of layers or spheres of group. You know, because wow, like family as a whole, blood family, is a whole other situation, but that really kind of goes directly to my heart when you talk about like, talking to your parents and what might be… Or not talking to your parents and just, you know, holding space in a particular way, you know, things not being transmitted through language per se, because that’s, that’s probably not the most, or I don’t know, who knows what the most effective means when you are in a situation like that? You know, community-wise, dance-community-wise, and we talked about how unwieldy like AAPI technically a term is, it’s stupid. I mean, like, we gotta break into Asia, we got to start giving different names. It’s not cool. It’s not the way to, you know, like, in my mind, New York City is its own country with its own culture and lifestyle and cost of living for sure.
Justin Cabrillos
Yeah. I think it’s also maybe because I grew up in Southern California that “Asian” or “AAPI”, it’s just, it’s, it’s so varied also within parts of the country so that
Sam Kim
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very complex.
