Boy Troubles runs February 23-25th, 2012 at Danspace Project in a shared evening of work entitled, “From the Streets, From the Clubs, From the Houses,” as part of the Parallels Platform curated by Ishmael Houston-Jones.
Interview Date: February 20, 2012
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Marissa Perel: You have a busy life these days. You’ve been performing in Young Jean Lee’s Theatre Company doing Untitled Feminist Show and now you’re part of Parallels performing your own piece. What’s the name of that piece?
Regina Rocke: The name of the piece is Boy Troubles.
Marissa: Boy Troubles?
Regina: Yes, I forgot the name of the piece. Thank you for reminding me [laughs].
Marissa: And, you’re performing this piece with Niall?
Regina: Yes. Niall is listed as “Niall Noel Jones”. Otherwise known as Niall.
Marissa: Is Noel not his middle name but another name?
Regina: I believe Noel comes from his father’s name. His father’s name is Noel. His father’s name is pronounced “Nole,” but, with Niall, it’s pronounced like the feminine “Noelle”. I guess it’s his performance alter ego.
Marissa: Is he performing as an alter ego in your piece?
Regina: No, he’s definitely himself.
Marissa: Okay.
Regina: We are performing aspects of ourselves in the piece.
Marissa: What are some of these aspects?
Regina: There’s, at least for me…and Niall…the drag queen us. There’s the femme, faggy version of us. There’s the masculine [version]. There’s definitely the dancer, the trained dancer. And, that’s about it.
Marissa: How does the dancer work its way into these other aspects of yourselves?
Regina: There are four sections to the piece and it begins with an improv done by me, when I show off my dancing abilities, my technique if you will. There’s a little bit of the voguing, faggy version of myself, but then there’s just straight-on dance. As the piece progresses, Niall comes out and, often when we work together, there’s this dynamic. Niall and I have basically been performing over the past year, doing various versions of a duet where we’re in love; we portray lovers. And, I’ll often have him come on as very masculine. I call it the “thugged out Niall.” I’ll say, “Now, in this version, you’re the thugged out guy.” And, I just imagine the most attractive guy in the bar or the club who just has this swagger, knows he’s hot, and knows he can get every woman in the room. And, part of me is totally disgusted and turned off by that. But, then, part of me is very turned on. For the show for Parallels, he’s this guy; and, in past work, he’s that guy. And, he often comes on stage as that guy. Then we flip it and he gets super vogued out, princess, queen type guy and shows off his voguing skills. The voguing is at a minimum for this piece; it’s not all about that. It’s just like the prissiest, swishiest, sissiest versions of ourselves. That’s the part of my personality that I love to show off.
Marissa: The prissy [version]?
Regina: I am actually extremely prissy [laughs].
Marissa: Are you a princess or what kind of princess are you when you’re doing that, I guess? Are you a queer princess? Are you an ultra femme, ultra straight princess?
Regina: Often when I perform, I go back to being a little girl in dance class. I guess what I’m saying is, I often think of myself as a gay teenage boy who wants to be in dance class. He wants to be a pretty dancer; he wants to be a ballerina or a performer putting on costumes and makeup. That’s something I really enjoy performing because I’ve always loved that as a dancer from a very young age. I love costumes. It is drag. You get to put on a different costume for every different piece. I did not like recitals growing up at all. I hated recitals. But, I loved the costumes and I loved putting on makeup. So, at this stage in my performance, I still always go back to those things. I always go back to my ballet upbringing and my jazz training, but now it’s just almost over-the-top femininity. I present, very often as very masculine, but when it comes to performing, the very feminine girly girl, prissy, comes out. But, really this piece is about the relationship between me and Niall. There’s a story. We’re in love and we do a love duet and then he breaks my heart. And, the piece ends with my mourning the end of our relationship [laughs]. The piece scratches the surface of an idea I wish I had more time to explore. I have been performing so hardcore that it has been hard to get everything I’ve wanted to do. The piece plays with gender and gender representation a lot. And voguing. Niall and I both love voguing. He went to a lot of balls when he lived in Virginia. He doesn’t so much anymore. And, I definitely don’t attend them very often but it’s fun to pretend that we’re really fierce, voguing queens.
Marissa: You haven’t had time because you’ve been performing really hardcore in this other piece [The Untitled Feminist Show], naked all the time and performing gender. So, I wanted to ask you about how or if your experience of performing in Young Jean’s piece has influenced your making of “Boy Troubles”? How is your body informed by that experience?
Regina: I would say Young Jean’s piece definitely informed this one. Nudity isn’t really part of what Niall and I are doing and there were no biological men in that piece [The Untitled Feminist Show]. But, there was a lot of mixing and playing with gender representations within that piece. I did take on this really girly character in that show; I took a very masculine character sometimes. I took on that flaming, faggy, prissy, femme boy character. There was a lot. Then, I just was me, or as close to that as possible. And, that’s definitely coming out in this piece.
In dance, we usually do a show Wednesday through Saturday, most likely Thursday through Saturday. We did this show four to five nights per week for a month. And, there were many chances to freak out every night before the show and get nervous, but it was also really great to perform over and over again and work on different things. And, if you had a bad night, you could go back the next night and have a great night. It got easier to perform it. I was less nervous as we went on. The nervousness didn’t come from being nude, the nervousness just came from regular stage fright. What if I forget this section? What if my staging’s off and I don’t land in the right place during this dance? It was just regular stuff that most performers freak out about right before the show’s about to begin. And, it was really great to learn different ways to relax yourself before a show and not to get so worked up. And, knowing certain people were in the audience. Young Jean is very popular with a lot of people and some of them quite famous, and knowing they were in the audience. I performed for Lou Reed and Laurie Anderson and Rufus Wainwrights and Kathleen Hanna and JD Sampson. I have to remind myself of that. If they’ve all seen me naked, I can do just about anything on stage.
So, what I am doing for Parallels is very much informed by what I did in Young Jean’s show. All these different aspects of myself and of Niall. Niall doesn’t carry himself as a drag queen, voguing, femme guy. But, in my work I’ll have him do that but then I’ll also have him present this very butch, masculine [guy] too. I like the dynamic of all those different aspects of our selves…he’s a man and I am a woman biologically and traditionally in dance, we do a love duet. And, we are very much representing genders. Whereas, this duet is very simple, it’s very easy. Niall’s the guy, I’m the girl. We’re in love. We break up. However, we are both performing different genders and portraying love for each other. If I take myself out of it and I am just an audience member; I don’t know us. I like the idea that it’s a different take on a very traditional duet that we’ve all seen before. And, in the piece, Niall and I kiss and it’s not a romantic kiss. It’s like a hot and heavy make out kiss.
He’s not very amused by it, but I just love that…you don’t really often see that in traditional, heterosexual dance duets. You know they hint at it. Often in performances they hint at it, and there’s flirting on stage, but you rarely see the two performers make out. And, you rarely see these two, sometimes butch sometimes femme, very ambiguous with their gender identity and sexuality people, then make out. Because, sometimes Niall is the woman and I’m the guy; and then sometimes I’m the guy and he’s the woman.
Marissa Perel: What do you think about performing this piece in the context of Parallels?
Regina: I would say it’s actually very fitting with the evening that we’re showing. I haven’t seen all of the work being performed yet, but, based on the descriptions and talking to the other performers and choreographers, there’s a lot of that in the show. A lot of addressing sexuality and what you think you might know about me, but what’s really going on with me. There is voguing; there is street dance in the show. What I do appreciate about the evening that we are showing is that we are not sticking out like a sore thumb. It’s not a shared evening with other types of dance that have nothing to do with what Niall and I are doing. I like that the pieces are similar in certain ways and that there are other pieces between two men who experiment with their sexuality, and they also address race. The obvious things. This is the first time I’ve ever been a part of a shared evening where that’s the theme of the show. Which is great; which I love.
Marissa: As opposed to something straighter or something that doesn’t address those issues at all?
Regina: Yeah, I mean, I’ve always thought of these things but I am thinking of a specific show where a black man and a black woman did a playful kind of a duet. It wasn’t as overt as Niall and I. And, I remember just getting frustrated because I thought, “I’ve seen this before.” I am just kind of tired of the typical heterosexual duet. Especially the gorgeous black dancer showing off their technique and they just kind of hold hands at the end of the piece. I just thought, “No.” And, then you go backstage and the guy is gay and you’re thinking, “Why are you in this duet with this woman pretending to be a straight guy in love with her?”
Marissa: Yeah, that plagues my mind about the history of dance until yesterday [laughs].
Regina: I remember thinking [as I was] watching that duet, ”Why was he not allowed to present his sexuality in a more overt way?” “What if she is a lesbian, or non-gender conforming woman and wasn’t wearing this skirt?” That was in the spring of 2011. I remember thinking that when I started to think about the duet between me and Niall. I thought, “Ok, I want to take this very simple concept., a guy and a girl come together and they do a little dance together. What can I do to this to make it more interesting and just authentic to our personalities, How Niall and I really live our lives?” Niall and I are not dating; but it’s also my dream that people in audience will think we’re dating because, in my mind, our acting abilities will be so amazing that everyone will think, “Are they really together? Are they?” No one’s ever thought that, but this is sort of my critique on that heterosexual pas de deux that we see all the time.
Marissa: Do you think that that’s particularly racialized?
Regina: I have definitely seen a Ron Brown piece all about voguing, but I feel like most black dance companies will have a heterosexual pairing. I mean, what would be amazing would be two women within the context of a black dance company; two women coming together, which is in Young Jean’s show.
Marissa: Yeah, that’s you and Katy [Pyle]?
Regina: Yeah, people really, really responded to that duet. That duet to me is very playful, but it scratches the surface. I know Niall and I are very comfortable with each other, so I just figured, we have to make out [laughs].
Marissa: Well, also you’re not naked, which, I think, is able to discharge the pairing in a way or something. If you and Katy are already naked and anywhere you go from there is going to be intense.
Regina: Well, I keep forgetting that. Speaking of being naked in a show for a month, I often was forgetting that we were naked and I was complaining, “I feel like this duet’s too safe.” And, then, it sparked my attention: you two have no clothes on. And, I was always amazed at the reaction. So many people really were happy to see that and happy to see that on stage…No one said that it was too safe; no one was saying that it doesn’t really go there. Again, we don’t have clothes on…I did forget we were. Being naked was like a costume by the end of that show.
Marissa: What are you feeling about naked performance now?
Regina: I feel that for me to really be into it and appreciate it, I would like a variety of bodies on stage. Dancers tend to be really physically fit and capable of doing really extraordinary things with their bodies. We are in our bodies, we are very comfortable in our bodies. That show really taught me that it’s really much more interesting for all different types. And, this makes sense. It’s logical. But, I definitely feel like in the dance world, we see a certain type of body naked. And, it’s frustrating when the choreographer’s intention is to make that piece about feminism and gender and women’s bodies and everyone is really hot and really attractive. Even the girl who is labeled the ‘bigger one,’ she’s still a dancer and still able to do really amazing things. Whereas, in Young Jean’s show, there were people who were not trained dancers at all. It really was a variety.
Marissa: Did it make you think about being a dancer differently?
Regina: It made me have a different consciousness. I knew when the show ended I wasn’t going to start some hardcore, Pilates, take care of my body regime. I knew I wouldn’t and I haven’t. It was frustrating, I go up and down. It’s either really intense physical activity or nothing. Yet, I do not have the attention span to finish an entire class of any sort, whether it is yoga, Pilates, ballet, modern.
Marissa: Do you feel like that takes away from your ability as a dancer and performer? What is the relationship between taking a class and performing for you?
Regina: Performing is much more satisfying. Rehearsing is much, much more satisfying. I enjoy it. It’s hard to rehearse by myself. I do a lot of solo rehearsing; that’s difficult. I get much more satisfaction out of thinking about the dances I make and going into the studio, then taking a class. Really, the only way I’ve been able to stay in shape is just riding my bike. Performing in Young Jean’s show really wrecked my body physically, because we’re doing that 4 to 5 nights a week.
Marissa: And you’re lifting, turning, kicking, go!
Regina: Yeah, there was lifting, there were pirouettes, there were jetés, and all kinds of stuff. And, all I could think was, “When this is over I am going to feel completely ok with not doing a highly technical dance.” We’re going on tour. I am going to have to do it again. But, I used to want to be in a dance company and perform work that required a great deal of technical skill. And, I am reminded that that is just not something I am interested in at all. And, then sometimes I just wonder, am I the only one? I feel like I am not going to be able to do what I can do forever, as far as my physical capabilities and I don’t care. And, I am wondering if I should.
Marissa: Yeah, there’s a hugely divergent ideology there about using your body for art. Can you just continue to make things that are ‘you’ even if they’re not going to look the same as they did when you were in your twenties? The work then has to changes as your body changes. Or, you let it go and move on to something else once you don’t have the same ability.
Regina: I don’t picture myself moving on and stopping. Right now, I am totally content with doing what I can do. I do notice a difference. There were things when we first started rehearsing that were really difficult for me. And I was thinking, “Oh, when I was fifteen this was so easy!” But, then, by the end of the show, I was right back to where I used to be. And, I was thinking, “I still got it!” But, then the last show I pulled my hamstring and I can barely touch my toes now.
Marissa: Here’s a question about the being fifteen part and what you said before about being a ballerina and doing jazz as a girl, but feeling like you were in drag. When does it click for you, remembering yourself as a teenage dancer? How does that translate into how you identify and how you see gender now? Where did the ballerina go?
Regina: Well, see, it’s always there. It still doesn’t necessarily feel like drag, it just feels like an aspect of my personality that isn’t on the surface on a daily basis. And, people who know me really well know this: the super prissy, girly girl is just under the surface. It is always there. I remember in high school, iI was really, really masculine. I didn’t wear dresses or anything feminine at all. And, then I would go to the studio in the evening and take all my classes and go to rehearsals and I was always wanting to look at myself in the mirror and always posing and really loved wearing different outfits to dance class. I was always looking at myself in the mirror, always. I would pose and it was just nonstop looking at myself being girly. That’s what I love about ballet. I actually love all of those very feminine gestures that a female ballerina does, with the hands and the arm placements and the kicks and the turns and everything. I loved putting on a tutu for the recital. Even when I perform now, I do think people would probably consider it drag. And, sometimes, I do think of it that way. But, it really is always there.
And, I remember during rehearsals for Young Jean, we were in a studio with a mirror and I went right back to looking at myself and posing and I would do my model walks and voguing and stuff and I remember saying, “I’ve always done this! This is nothing new for me. You bringing that up makes me realize how I had totally forgotten how masculine I was in high school. Completely. But, I was also much more into fashion and wearing different outfits when I was in school and now I don’t even care about, I just can’t be bothered. In my mind, if I had the ultimate dream job of just being a performing drag queen every night, I think I would care. But I don’t. Right now the one or two performances that I have lined up is a great way for me to kind of get back into that and I did spend a lot of time picking out my costume for the Parallels show. I can’t wait to wear my costume. And, there is ballet in the show. And, it’s my favorite part to perform, doing brisees and arabesques across the floor. That’s something I’ve never tried to deny: I love ballet. I love performing ballet. I would take a class if I weren’t so apathetic.
Marissa: It’s obviously in you and in there and you can draw from it when you want to.
Regina: Definitely.
