Critical Correspondence

Iskra Sukarova and Biljana Tanurovska-Kjulavskovski in conversation with Ursula Eagly

This conversation is excerpted from a series of longer interviews that Ursula Eagly conducted with Macedonian choreographer Iskra Sukarova and curator/producer Biljana Tanurovska-Kjulavskovski in 2010, when she traveled to Skopje on a grant from Dance Theater Workshop’s Suitcase Fund. Iskra and Biljana are currently visiting New York to participate in the Performance Mix Festival’s Balkan Express and to continue their ongoing exchange with Ursula Eagly.

Interview date:  April 2010

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On their first experiences of the American art world

Ursula Eagly: Tell me about your experience visiting New York for the first time through your Artslink fellowship.

Iskra Sukarova: It was 1996, and I was 25. I had a workshop with Stephen Petronio through DanceWeb. It was after DanceWeb, but I got a grant just for this. I went to Vienna, and Stephen Petronio was teaching Alexander Technique. He was the only New York artist I knew, so I said that I wanted to work with him in the Artslink application. But because I was interested in experimental work, not just dance institutions, Artslink proposed that I work with Yoshiko Chuma as a mentor.

When I met Yoshiko Chuma, everything changed for me. Just going to New York, really she was an excellent mentor. I saw many shows, she made a great agenda. She was like a mother to me, a person who was really so close, because she saw that I was hungry to find out about dance performances, about what’s going on on the New York stage. She said, okay, you’ll have a notebook now. She was so interested for me to write down my very first impressions about shows I saw. She was so intrigued by this, I guess the purity I had, and the youth I had, and just describing something in two sentences, like a diary. I have these diaries today, I found them when I was moving, recently, and my god, what I wrote that Butoh meant. I saw Sankai Juku, I took classes with Vicky Shick. Walking through the neighborhood with Yoshiko, she said “this is my friend, she’s a choreographer, and this is my friend, who’s a musician.” For me it was this friendly environment I never saw before. I saw for the first time that it was a community, and that people would create things together. It’s not that there has to be an institution to create work and that there’s this very informal way of…. all the release technique, I had class with David Zambrano, he was at that time with Movement Research, and with Chrysa Parkinson. These are names now a lot in Europe. I took classes with them, and release technique was something completely new for me then. That was another technique that I learned in New York. It was very interesting for me.

It’s something that changed a lot of things of how I saw dance. Some of the performances were very different from the European dance performances I saw. I saw Pina Bausch, or some very established contemporary dance companies. But the performances I saw in New York sometimes were very strange. Sometimes it was the edge of, is this real? Are they serious? Is this really happening? They had a completely different way of presenting presence on stage, and I questioned a lot, I was also shocked I think. It was sometimes very informal. There was a lot of text coming, sometimes. There were people speaking, some music. It was like, is this really serious? Are they experimenting now today with us as audience? Is this a finished work? I went to Judson Church to see performances, I went to all the places that were important at that time for dance in New York.

Ursula: What was your experience returning to the Macedonian National Ballet, where you were dancing? What did you bring back from New York at that time?

Iskra: I brought something back. I established contacts with people. Yoshiko came, and Allyson Green, Mia Lawrence came here, together with Yoshiko they came. Sometimes Yoshiko made two times workshop and then performances. We worked with people from the theater, from the ballet company. She was actually in the instutution, that’s what I could do. We didn’t have Lokomotiva then, but the director was pleased to have someone from the USA doing a performance. It was connected to a big festival, which was a young open theater festival. At that time the director was a young guy who travelled, he was interested in what was happening in the world. At that time, he commissioned these pieces for the festival, so I proposed to Yoshiko that they could be the performers from the ballet, because there was no other thing at that time. This was 1998 that Yoshiko came. For me it was bringing all the experiences, but also the people. These people wanted to come to explore what was happening in the Balkans. They had the grant, so they could finance the trip. I could not invite them, but the policy at that time in the States was that if artists are interested in what’s happening in Eastern Europe, they would bring people here.

Biljana: People here were hungry, actually to get someone from outside. There were just some individuals who could bring this information. If it wasn’t for Iskra going there and having these islands in this environment, experiencing this community, to bring it here, it wouldn’t be possible. There were only individuals who were traveling. It was not very open, these countries.

Ursula: And Biljana, you also came to the states on an Artslink Fellowship?

Biljana: I went that time in Artslink. I was in Seattle, it was an organization called 911 Media… I have to check. It was this super independent organization which was combining… at that time I started researching how to do an indpedent organization in Macedonia, that would be really independent and also it can combine education, research, production, work on different levels, producing the different procedures of work. Something that was completely different from what we had in this environment.

I started before to work on this through this European diploma, on combination how the structure of the organization should look like, so then I went in Artslink there, and I was researching this through that organization and many others which were there, because it’s this very open environment, Seattle. There are so many independent film studios, centers, performing spaces. For me this was like wow, great, wonderful. I wanted in that sense to bring all of that experience and knowledge that I gained here. I think this period very close before we started Lokomotiva. It was very intensive work. Let’s do something which will be a platform to produce new things, to open it to other people, to experiment, to be innovative, which was impossible actually with institution.

. . . What happened, parallel-ly, I was doing this work and meeting with other people, and Iskra was working by herself on another level. I did a European diploma, a sort of specialization for management of arts and culture, and there I met, this is in Brussels, I met a woman who is a friend of mine, Nicole Heizinger, and she is this theoretician of contemporary dance. I said, let’s collaborate together. I got this grant to go to Tanzquartier in Vienna, where spent time reading books about contemporary dance. I think it was 2002.

Iskra: We started emailing a lot, and talking about coming back to Macedonia and starting something with all this experience.

On the British dance scene and national & artistic identities

Ursula Eagly: How did make the decision to get your master’s degree in London? How did you choose that program?

Iskra Sukarova: After I finished my [contemporary dance] education in France in 1993, I got a lot of opportunities, because I was the pioneer, the only person who was interested in contemporary dance [in Macedonia]. I got to travel to a lot of festivals and workshops, but I was still a soloist in the ballet company. I was performing classical ballet, and my own pieces were performed in the theater by dancers from the ballet company. And also I did my work out of the company, as an independent artist.

When I finished my history of art studies, the British Council had a scholarship that covered all expenses for study in the UK. It was not just for artists, it was for any field. So my friend who was then employed in the British Council told me to try to apply. I was really lucky, I got the scholarship. I wanted to do theoretical research, and Laban Dance Center is one of the places that can provide this education. So that’s where I did my MA from 2001-2002 in London, in the Laban Dance Center.

It really was very new for me, especially the work with the mentors, and all the readings I had. Because before I used to work on [dance] pieces quite intuitively, based on the technique, on the physical approach. But this opportunity—for researching Laban method and methods of other choreographers, and then finding out what my field of interest would be using this knowledge—was something that shaped me and gave me a lot of information to think about my personal quest, what my personal interest for movement would be, making it a little bit more conscious and research-based, instead of just what it was.

In the Balkans, we don’t have education for dance except really practice-based. In Macedonia, it’s very classical ballet oriented, so you finish the secondary school and then go in the theater. For me, this scholarship provided me with academic qualifications for education we don’t have in our region. I am also one of the rare people who has this education on an MA level, at least for Macedonia. Being a choreographer and having the MA. There are MAs in different fields, in theater, for example. So for me, it’s very good that I did finish this two-year education. For me, it was hard, because of the readings and writings I had to do and the thesis in dance, which was something new for me. I felt that something was very good, that something was changing the way I saw and defined dance and movement.

Ursula: What did you write your thesis on?

Iskra: The final title was “The Dancing Body in Relation to Geometry in Space.” It was really about the exploration of geometry in space. Not just in space, but also in the body space. The kinesphere and also the space in which you move. It was something that really interested me.

Now I see that this interest is very informed by my classical background, because you use a lot of space when you dance on these classical diagonals. There are really strong cannons, really strong rules about how you move when performing a classical variation, for example. I referred to this spatial composition in my research. I used these points in space, which were defining the spaces that classical ballet variation finished. I didn’t use this ballet vocabulary, but I did use some movement.

You can also explore the rules of having these points, and how they relate to these points. Like, you don’t have to always face the audience, you can also turn your back to the audience. Really altering very simple rules, coming from the classical ballet concepts. I developed the concepts from classical ballet experience.

Ursula: Were there people or teachers or dances that were influential for you?

Iskra: I had very good mentors. Ana Sanchez-Colberg and Valerie Preston Dunlop, who actually worked with Rudolph von Laban. She’s one of the people who’s still active in transferring his knowledge. Definitely the conversations and the research that I did with them was really very good, very knew to me.

Also, I saw a lot of performances. I got familiar with the British dance scene, the companies and the aesthetics. I found it . . . very good work, very good dancers, very clean work, in the sense that it’s researched, but also very cultivated, very refined. I could never really say I saw something that took me out of the edge. Sometimes . . . they’re wonderful people. . . but it was quite predictable for me.

I come from the Balkans. We don’t always relate to something which is very well of this order. For me, somehow, I lacked a little bit of chaos. Not in the sense of movement or space, but something that was for me for familiar from the background which I came, which was something chaotic, not refined, sometimes very intuitive.

I was always questioning who am I, coming from the Balkans and studying in a system which is so different from my system. And how can I apply it when I go back in my country? I can’t do it in an academic way, because we don’t have academic institutions for dance. I was thinking in terms of my work as a choreographer, how could I use this experience to develop my own aesthetic, something that I found is truthful, meaningful. And yet so different.

How I could use all this Balkan heritage, which is so different from the British system, aesthetics, values? I didn’t want to just melt into a system, a kind of established aesthetics, because it couldn’t feel real for me. It couldn’t feel fair towards my kind of personal exploration. I could never feel I was completely part of this system, because I come from another part of the world. I really like these qualities. Sometimes they freak me out, but sometimes I really enjoy them.

Ursula: Can you describe what these Balkan qualities are?

Iskra: I feel like I cannot feel stable. You never know how things will turn out in the long term, politically. You can’t say, okay, so this is the system and it functions. No, you’re part of the system and it changes. You can really feel very much alive with this. You can also sometimes influence, and sometimes you can do nothing about certain issues, and you feel helpless. Sometimes you can do a lot with the experience you have. Instability.

Also, I always think of this rawness. People cannot hide their feelings. You can see when someone is worried, when someone doesn’t like you. That’s the only way I communicate with people, it’s really open. It’s very different from other countries. People here I think seem a little bit rough. There is a big drama here. I like that very much, this kind of, if you’re happy, you’re happy, you’re HAPPY. If you’re sad, maybe you drag everyone down with you. It can take over, these moods. It’s never neutral.

Ursula: Do you see these qualities reflected in your work?

Iskra: I think I’m looking for that quality. Kinetically, it’s difficult for me, because I’m thinking in terms of form and expression. For me, classical ballet is very much about form. But also the body is then expressive. For me, the exploration on my master’s thesis was really formal, but then also this formal language, formal movement language and formal spatial language. I go from that way to another extreme, which is having all that space and the body in space with no spatial direction. For me, it was very kinetic research. A way maybe to put together form and expression . . . I’m looking for that quality.

I’m also looking for this other quality, which is very human. I like when dance is so refined and so special and so really researched well and thought about. But sometimes I feel it’s very distant. I can relate to it, because I’m a dancer. But I know there’s a person behind that. Sometimes I just look for this other quality, of this human being coming out.

On It, a solo choreographed by Iskra and performed by Ursula as part of the Performance Mix Festival’s Balkan Express on Friday, April 29, 2011

Ursula Eagly: I’m interested in what you were saying about the duality of the sphinx and how it mirrors the duality in your own life between classical and contemporary dance, feeling split in two halves.

Iskra Sukarova: It’s actually not about feeling split, it’s about having these two methods together in one body. When I finish with classical ballet routine, I enter a contemporary, not just technique, but a way of seeing movement. I have movements in my body which are not coded as classical ballet. For me, the sphinx was a creature that portrays this duality in one body. The sphinx is a metaphor for my own experience.

I recognized this metaphor through research with the Belgrade-based dramaturg Ana Vujanovic. I was describing what the sphinx meant for me, and I came to the point when I started talking about not only the duality of the sphinx as a mythological being, but also the duality happening within my body. I have these two languages in myself: the very concrete, very defined classical vocabulary and also the freedom of creating today, using whatever that means to express myself today.

Ursula: Do you extend the metaphor to other aspects of the sphinx story, such as her role as the guardian of Thebes?

Iskra: With the dramaturg, we were talking about two things: One was exploring the duality of the sphinx as a metaphor and one was the story the sphinx. We have two ways that we could go.

Ursula: Tell me more about your relationship with the dramaturg. In the U.S., we don’t have a strong tradition of dramaturgy for dance, so I’m very curious about it. What do you take from the dramaturgy into the studio?

Iskra: We thought and talked a lot. We had a very practical feedback relationship between someone who is a theoretician and someone who is practicing. She could see how the theory was reflected in practice, but it was not in the studio. Our agreement was not to make a piece, but to research. In the second stage of our collaboration, it might become a studio-based work. Actually, working with you here is the first time this research is happening in the studio.

This research is part of a longer process, which has lasted a few years. After I broke my foot, I had a lot of time to read and research. I always have an urge to think in practice, and I would never have asked myself all these questions that Ana asked me. The guidelines she gave helped me to reflect and to be very honest. That’s how I came to my story, as a person of having a duality between classical and contemporary artwork.

Ursula: What originally attracted you to the story of the sphinx?

Iskra: I just started thinking about this creature. I started thinking about how I can portray myself as the character of the sphinx. In classical ballet, we portray a lot of characters. We’re always role-playing, it’s very narrative. For me, the sphinx was a reference to Martha Graham and her way of using a technique that is not classical ballet to portray a character. What would Martha Graham be today? I’m trying to build up a vocabulary that will enable me to express this duality in my body through the story of the sphinx. It doesn’t exclude Martha Graham from coming up.

And what do you think? What would the association of the sphinx be for you?

Ursula: Mention “the sphinx” to me, and I think of the story of Oedipus and the Egyptian wing of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. There’s an Egyptian pyramid and a lot of Egyptian artwork in that museum. There are these stone sculptures of the sphinx.

Iskra: Is she a creature or a woman or a female?

Ursula: She’s female. She has breasts. The body of a lion, but a woman’s breasts and a woman’s face.

Iskra: Do you think she’s stronger, not just human?

Ursula: She seems very powerful. Oedipus has power over her because he answers her question, but even Oedipus has to play her game. There’s no story where someone says “Screw your question!” and kills her. Nobody sneaks around her. Everyone has to play by her rules. She determines what the game is. When she’s beaten at her own game, it’s fair. She could have eaten him anyway, or changed the rules of the game, but she is very fair.

I think that these creatures have a separate status from people and from gods. I think of the half-animal creatures in a realm with the demi-gods. They’re not immortal, they’re not divine, but they are more powerful than people.

Iskra: Why do think that humans invented this duality? This is a big question for me, this why.